Stroudsburg
I've been reading the website of The British Institute of Osteopathy and I cannot find any reference to treatment of non-infectious diseases (i. e. those not caused by a bacteria, virus, protozoa, parasite, mould, fungus or yeast).I was always taught that the definition of 'disease' is 'any undesirable condition of the body or mind". I like this definition because it encompasses everything, from flu to schizophrenia to diabetes to cancer - or even just spots! It's also a definition which should satisfy both 'orthodox' and alternative medical definitions of 'disease'. From this all-encompassing definition of disease I then went on to study pathogenic/infectious disease i. e. those causes by pathogens which infect the body. From what I've read on this site it seems that if osteopaths understood the basic principles of 'orthodox' medicine they would find both theories actually pretty much agree. The British Institute of Osteopathy seems to think that 'orthodox' medicine is only concerned with eliminating pathogens. Obviously this is not the case; it is well understood that an optimally functioning human body and immune system is able to defend itself adequately against many invaders. Any medicinal approach has to be primarily concerned with keeping a body healthy/an environment clean so that it does not have to cleanse itself. But what about diseases, like diabetes, that are not infectious - how can osteopathy help? What is the osteopathic theory of how they develop? Chalice
White Mesa
They can't. Just to clarify, in the UK osteopaths' have a different role to US osteopaths' who are DOs. I am in the UK. Both Osteopathy and Chiropractic stemmed from the same occult philosophical woo roots, both believe that the body can heal itself with the manipulation of bones and joints. The osteo’s believe that moving bones improves circulation and that, "loss of structural integrity can be restored to harmony or equilibrium by manipulation". The chiro's believe that moving bones reduces pressure on the nerves, which helps various organs and tissue. Now to be fair, Osteopathy has left a lot of it's woo woo roots behind in recent years; but the problem is many Osteo's are germ theory denialists and believe that diseases are caused by misalignment's of the spine. Not only is this BS, viruses can sometimes "trigger" type 1 diabetes in someone who already has genetic tendencys. Their germ denialism contradicts well tested microbiology, histology, immunology and physiology. Type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disease. In order to develop it, the patient needs to have an inherited tenancy that is activated in some way by a viral trigger to switch on a progressive destruction of the bodies own ability to produce insulin. Antibodies are produced that are directed against both the insulin hormone and the pancreatic beta cells that produce and release insulin. Once these cells have been destroyed, insulin levels fall to such low levels that the patient develops diabetes. There is no way, osteopathy could prevent or treat this problem. With type 2 diabetes, most is age related, sometimes inherited, and often caused by "Western living" (that has a strong association with obesity, a poor diet and physical inactivity). Insulin levels are usually lower and most importantly, the patients tissues are resistant to the action of insulin (insulin resistance). There is no plausible way, osteopathy could prevent or treat this problem.======================================…@ Lightning: You said, "Having said that the germ theory is probably incomplete as being exposed to a germ does not guarentee that you will become ill where as someone standing next to you may become very sick with the same exposure even though both of you had never been exposed to the germ before."Only an unscientific mind would suggest that because not everyone who is exposed to the same germ gets sick, it must mean germs aren't the causes of disease. That’s a fallacy, sir. EXAMPLE:50 people (5 times over the limit) drink drive, only 20 of them have accidents, Therefore alcohol was not a factor in the other accidents. This does not follow, it does not mean that alcohol wasn't the cause of those accidents. It's the same with germs.. FAIL.======================================…lol Weise for BA.
Fate
I actually got this website from a link Dave provided in a previous question ;-)I'm glad to hear not all osteopaths the world over subscribe to the nonsense I read on this site!!I also this question was meant to be a bit of a sh*t stirrer - many intelligent answers tho, and interesting rants!! Report Abuse
Varna
What value do you get **** stirring? The nurses answer was rubbish BTW with a whole host of inaccuracies and a clear mis-understanding of cause and effect. Report Abuse
Saginaw
Such a sore loser lighty. Tsk tsk. Report Abuse
Taunton
No just stating the truth. Your answer is full of inacurate wibble. Report Abuse
Mount Airy
The British osteopaths seem to be germ theory denialists. Best to ridicule them at every opportunity. In the US, osteopaths are trained much like doctors and aren't nuts. Edit: Lightning, actually read the statement from the British osteopath organization. Anyone who denies germ theory is insane.
Rebersburg
I know not of the British Osteopath but in the US a DO would treat as "orthodox" medicine. in the US DOs have the same specialties as MDs. Mayo Clinic has DOs on staff as well as most ERs around the country. Same hospital privileges, etc., there is no apparent anamosity between MDs and DOs
Martinez
Incorrectly.
Lyons
Do you think that germs cause disease? The British Institute of Osteopathy disagrees: "Germs are made by your body in an effort to clear up a messy environment. Once this has been achieved they will automatically disappear again."http://www. british-institute-of-osteopat… I really don't recommend that site at all, it's very bizarre and much of the information is outdated and completely incorrect.
North Spearfish
###"Germs are made by your body in an effort to clear up a messy environment. Once this has been achieved they will automatically disappear again."I really don't recommend that site at all, it's very bizarre and much of the information is outdated and completely incorrect.####I couldn't agree more Dave. I'd never actually heard of the British institute of Osteopathy until you mentioned it in a previous question. I don't know anyone who is a member. Before regulation there were lots of societies and organisations which are now defunct with very few members if any. Institutions like this exist with a membership often composed mostly of non osteopaths although I haven't looked at this one so I couldn't comment. Having said that the germ theory is probably incomplete as being exposed to a germ does not guarentee that you will become ill where as someone standing next to you may become very sick with the same exposure even though both of you had never been exposed to the germ before. Moving on.....When osteopathy was founded what caused sickness wasn't well understood so differing theories were around. In the 50's because of major discoveries the Osteopathic syllabuses were revamped and some of the older treatments were dumped as the causative factors had been established and were systemic rather than musculoskeletal. For example Osteopaths were taught non surgical treatments for Apendicitis. We aren't anymore because a better treatment protocol has been established and attempting to treat apendicitis the traditional osteopathic way would be potentially dangerous and there is a good chance the patient would die. Some die hards hold on to the orignial teachings literally but they are very few in number. This is a dangerous position to be in and found in all walks of life. It assumes whoever founded whatever had all the answers. I know Andrew T. Still would not have claimed to have known everything but beside from that if you know it all you can't learn. If you can't learn anymore you are doomed. There are musculo-skeletal components to some illnesses. For example a cough or a cold may be eased a little by working on the thorax and diaphragm and the nasal complex. It wouldn't always be appropriate to treat. For example I sent a patient home a few months ago as touching him was like handling a hot water bottle. His body temperature was very high and there was a very good chance that treating him would have led to him having a stroke (he didn't come in complining of a cold I will add). He came back about a week later when his temperature had dropped. As for diabeties, we learn a lot about it as it is very common and affects every system in the body including the musculoskeletal system. Consequently it is important to establish whether or not the musculoskeletal symptoms people present with are actually musculoskeletal in origin. An Osteopath cannot directly treat diabeties. An Osteopath may well treat a patient with diabetes and may help blood supply to the tissues affected by diabeties but the underlying causative factor will remain. I would not expect a patient to present to my clinic asking me to treat their diabeties. If that did happen all I could do is give them some dietry advice. However Diabetics do hurt themselves and have musculoskeltal pain just like anyone else so I do see a lot of people with diabeties. If the diabeties isn't causing their musculoskeletal condition I usually do treat them although more cautiously than a non diabetic patient. I think many of the anti-osteopath bloggers would actually be surprised by how much we actually agree with the conventional medical world. Weise####The British osteopaths seem to be germ theory denialists. Best to ridicule them at every opportunity.###Not true. You have a real problem with getting your facts right. Denying germ theory is not a pre-requisit to practicing Osteopathy.###In the US, osteopaths are trained much like doctors and aren't nuts.###You've just earned a report. Edit2:###Lightning. If it's so medical and great why didn't you just become a doctor?###A few reasons angelhil. What I like most about my job is the specialism. We get very good at what we do but what we do is limited. I am not expected to be able to treat every condition known to man and have limitations. What I can't treat I don't attempt to and refer them on. As a medical physician you are almost expected to know and do everything. This isn't possible and I think why medicine fails so many people with chronic non life threatening conditions. I have also met many doctors over the years in my professional capacity, as a patient and as a layman and far too many of them have an attitude which is appaling. I didn't want to become like them. I could do a 3 year post grad degree in Checz Republic to convert my osteopathic degree to a medical degree but I have absolubtely no intention of doing so. I like what I do and how I practice & I like my relationship with my community too much to want to change it. Judging by my patient list they like it too.###They can't. Just to clarify, in the UK osteopaths' have a different role to US osteopaths' who are DOs.###Agreed. We practice real osteopathy. US osteopath are doctors pretending to be Osteopaths###I am in the UK. Both Osteopathy and Chiropractic stemmed from the same occult philosophical woo roots###Not sure about chiropractic but Osteopathy does not have occult roots at all. A.T. Still was a practicing methodist and would never have adopted technique based in occult philosophy.###Only an unscientific mind would suggest that because not everyone who is exposed to the same germ gets sick, it must mean germs aren't the causes of disease. That’s a fallacy, sir.###I would say only a reductionist, unscientific, blinkered mind would think like you do. There are millions of seeds in the ground in a farmers field. Some will grow after being there years because the conditions suddenly become right for them to burst forth and grow. Germs are likely to be a big part of the disease condition. They most certainly are not created inside us and having them in our bodies most certainly can lead to illness disease and even death but maybe the germ itself is not the whole answer. The conditions and its environment may also need to be correct for it to become active and propogate. If I'm wrong explain why 2 people exposed to the same germ won't both get the disease necessarily? If the germ is the only thing involved how can this happen? The theory of Diabeties being related to spinal segment dysfunction has been around for a while. It's total whack. However I am embarased to admit I have met Osteo's who beleive there is something in it. I don't know why as quite clearly diabetes doesn't go away when you manipulate those spinal segments. I have to clarify this is not taught in the syllabus of any of the colleges in the UK or Australiasia. It is however mentioned as a historical treatment protocol which we should no longer do. Type 1 theory is as rhianna suggests, Type 2, seems to be insulin resistance related as well as lower insulin related depending on the patient adiposite structure and function Some type 2 diabetics have higher secretions of insulin than non diabetics. Although I am sure compression of the spinal nerve roots does affect organs, more commonly the paravertebral tightening is a symptom of organ dysfunction rather than the cause of it. Consequently I am not sold on this theory as a healthy organ would still function and not fail to end up so dis-eased to cause diabeties from its nerve supply being pinched. When organs have no nerve supply at all, for example after an accident severing the spinal cord, they still function by means of hormone regulation and remain healthy (although their function is not optimum, I'm sure everyone would agree).####50 people (5 times over the limit) drink drive, only 20 of them have accidents, Therefore alcohol was not a factor in the other accidents. This does not follow, it does not mean that alcohol wasn't the cause of those accidents. It's the same with germs.. FAIL.####You've confirmed excatly what I am saying, although alcohol is a strong contributing factor which caused these 20 out of 50 to have accidents the environment is a factor in whether or not these people have accidents. Did they all drive home the same way? Were cars comming in the opposite direction for all of them? If so where some of these drivers sozzled as well and unable to get out of the way? Did they all turn corners? How far did they drive, was it all the same distance? Did some of them have more opportunities to have accidents because of additional hazzards as well as some of the things I've mentioned? You really need to look at your research methodology Rhianna. How did you get you MSc? I'm sure you would have done better than this. Edit:###@lightning. So when you gave me all that abuse saying "you're not a doctor!!" YOU'RE NOT A DOCTOR EITHER YOU FOOL!####I didn't give you abuse for not being a doctor I gave you abuse because you were being rude and ignorant and not showing appropriate respect. FYI, in NZ and Australia a registered Osteopath has the honorary title of Doctor. I am fully entitled to put this on my stationary, letter heads, bank statements etc. but I seldom use it at all because I don't like to be associated with medical physicians which has become the default occupation for the title 'Doctor'.In my opinion the only true holders of the title 'Doctor' are people that have been awarded PHD. Where is yours angelhil?
Brownsville
First, an osteopath in the UK is a DIPLOMAT of osteopathy, much like a chiropractor in the USA. Osteopathic physicians are DOCTORS of osteopathy in the USA and fully trained and licensed physicians and surgeons for over 100 years. An osteopathic tenant is that structure alters function and the rule of the artery from AT Still, MD, DO the founding father of osteopathy in the 1800's. Osteopaths would discuss lifestyle, including stress, eating habits, exercise and sleep patterns with their patient with diabetes mellitus. They would perform a comprehensive physical examination and work to normalize any abnormalities in the neuromusculoskeletal system. Such viscero somatic neural relexes my help to normalize or slow the diabetic condition and those related. I am unaware of any manual medicine studies that show they can normalize serium glucose levels or keep someone for needing exogenous insulin therapy. Sir William Osler said that a good doctor treats the disease but the great doctor treats the patient. Diabetes may be triggered by a virus or arise from an autoimmune disorder where the body attacks itself and may indeed be considered an infectious disorder. In any case, there is a place for such hands on, whole person healers along with the cutters and pill prescribers in the world. You may not limit yourself to one reference site for osteopathy and search the internet further. Wiki?
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